How NOT To Design A Logo

Amen! A thousand times over! I love the big red X’s and wish all casual logo-seekers would find this article!! Great job Jacob.

Thank you for this article. As a designer it irritates me to see companies take the route of holding “contests” just so they can sit back and take their pick of logos/designs. Most people quite honestly don’t do 100% on every single design piece they do. And like you said above, *pay is not guaranteed*. I found a contest for a Canadian telecom company a few months ago but decided against entering it after I thought about it.

Of course, other people may disagree and find that contests and such may be the best way for them to work. To each his own! Also, stock imagery is a big no-no in my book, unless it is to *supplement* a work, rather than be the focus of it [if done right].

Written by a true professional logo designer who charges big bucks for logo design! Don’t try doing it yourself…you can’t! Hire me!

a big reason why i cant design a logo, and i dont have a logo in my site.

“Although [sourcing via design contest] sounds like a mighty good deal, the quality is usually far from anything you would want to represent your business.”

The feedback from 99designs customers after they hold a logo design contest is overwhelmingly to the contrary of your observations – and there’s been about 10,000 of them. Most of them feel that the resulting logo exceeds the quality they were expecting to be able to get, given their budget.

It’s true that there’s a mixture of quality amongst the many designs that are submitted, but at the end of the day it’s only the winning design that matters to them.

“designers should not have to invest time and resources with no guarantee of payment.”

Very true – and they don’t have to. Again, the real world feedback from thousands of designers is that they enjoy design contests even if they don’t win, and for many it provides income in excess of what they otherwise earn with limited advertising and promotional budgets.

Just a counterpoint that some might find interesting.

What do you think about sites like http://www.logotournament.com ? i agree and think investing any time towards something with no guarantee of payment is bad, but there are plenty of designers on that website… i have a friend who participates, but hasn’t won yet

Paul,
In regards to the “designers should not have to invest time and resources with no guarantee of payment” of course this is every designers own choice, I was merely stating it from my own point of view, but it is a valid counterpoint.

I had a prospective client fill out a website planner recently and he attached a tiny poor quality logo stating that he was happy with this logo and that he’d found it online after an extensive search lol

So there’s another one for the list – Steal someone elses logo.

Nice article Jacob.

This list is greatness. Only thing I could disagree with is the Do It Yourself point. In certain aspects it could be acceptable to do the logo yourself. To me this would be underground zines or any do-it-yourself themed projects. To me it keeps a sense of authenticity to the medium. Very rare though that you could take the do it yourself approach.

Where’s the theory. I thought this was going to be an article on what makes up a good logo. ie: circles are evil, etc, etc…

(From D)
Agreed with everything mentioned in the article *except* for design contests. While the arguments presented do appear to make sense, there are important benefits which bypass them all… to both designers participating in such contests, as well as the clients initiating them.

By and large, most who participate in such contests are amateurs, and their level of skill is unsurprisingly sub par. The primary goal of these newbies is to attain quick monetary rewards, but what many who are against contests don’t mention are the secondary benefits, that of skill attainment and experience in dealing with clients – both of which are crucial when starting out in the industry. Fact of the matter is everyone had to have started somewhere, and contests are simply the latest and most convenient of places where talented individuals can immediately get a foothold in the industry and make a name for themselves. The reason why many of these so-called ‘professionals’ hate contests is that they diminish the capacity for them and the industry as a whole to charge exorbitant rates and fees for their services. Another is to ensure that any who show promising talent should be put in their place by getting them to spend years learning outdated degree programs, acquire lengthy and mundane corporate experiences, and most important of all – only allow a select few to the upper echelons if the design industry aka circle-jer.. err circle-’joy’ buddies.

Clients come in all shapes and forms – those who are able to afford quality service from reputable studios, no doubt charging an arm and a leg whilst doing so, and those who just barely can. Some certainly will not mind splurging out if they can afford to, but not all clients are as well off. Professional designers and design companies may prefer believing otherwise but there are clients who truly cannot afford their rates. So to these clients, opting to do it themselves, or trying out a few contests are probably their only option – they take a chance either way, except with contests with multiple designers participating, there is a higher chance someone with skill might produce someone just perfect for the look of the business and for the price given. If it’s so good, why shouldn’t all companies do such contests? Well for one thing, there is added risk the chosen designer may not be able to provide a complete service to the client, something large studios can. The logo may be perfect but the color may not translate well across different mediums. The logo may look fitting on a white or transparent canvas, but colored or black backgrounds may pose a problem. Some clients will not care, as these issues do not affect them, so the price paid is perfect. For clients who require solutions to these issues however, they get what they paid for exactly – the price of a good logo. In any case, clients win for the most part, as do designers.

The problem comes in when clients with no sense of taste or style choose lousy amateurish designs from newbies with almost no other skill, and end up with absolutely no after sale service – these clients deserve to get doubly burnt, lose the money and time, and end up with a crap design. Neither contests, nor contract services will help them, so may God have mercy on their soul.

Thankfully though, while many participating are amateurs, there are also a good number of open-minded professional designers who also take part in such contests, essentially reducing, if not eliminating bad designs from being selected. But why do they participate? Well, it turns out there are yet more benefit to contests those buggers don’t want anyone else to know – portfolio expansion, free advertising, and cheap client base expansion. Pros probably don’t need the money from contests, instead by producing consistently quality designs that score win after win, this will eventually attract the attention of clients who prefer going directly to such designers instead of starting contests themselves (the so-called “right way”). With accomplishments come a bigger and more varied portfolio, just the thing to convince future employers to acquire the designer, or attract more clients. Consistent wins also translate to free advertising from clients and even designers themselves. As the word spreads, this particular designer will be flooded with business in no time. The problem for them is to simply sort out the highest paying customers, regretfully inform those offering less, and complete the work. If the designer is good, he’d allow market forces to give him the desired high income he deserves from his now rich skill template, rather than suffocating the industry through his influence.

Those in the no-spec camp can umm, go to a bad burning place of utter darkness.

While I’m no expert, I don’t think the best answer to any sort of art/design/anything is “hire someone that’s better at it”. Yeah, it’s a lot easier and will result in less crap flooding the web, but learning to do something yourself and really getting it done well (or at least semi-decently) is a great experience.

I do agree when it comes to companies though. They shouldn’t be cutting corners on design if they want to maintain a professional look.

Personally, I think graphic designers (and web developers too) are always underrated. I don’t think people realise the value and work behind getting a logo right, as opposed to it just appearing out of nowhere and being as pleasing and as effective as it should.

As I know design is not about apperance only, it’s about soul and presence. Using general design for an unique product is bad. Inspiring me and frustating me, as I can’t design well. *LOL*

I think the biggest problem is eductation!

Most clients are ‘design illiterate’, they don’t know what outcome to expect and what makes a good logo (criteria to judge whatever the design present to them).

As a result most clients choose a logo based on its aesthetics.

I wrote an article similar to this beginning of last year.

http://www.mokokoma.co.za/2-reasons-why-clients-will-always-expect-to-pay-r99-for-a-logo

I disagree with the point about contests as large logo design projects are often placed out to tender to 5+ design firms or freelancers. This is essentially the same thing.

For example, the much loved Obama ‘08 logo was borne out of a ‘contest’ of sorts.

Sadly, it can go wrong as the London 2012 Olympics logo was also subject to a similar process.

As for the rest of the points, pretty much spot on ESPECIALLY the one about DIY logos.

I worked on a web project last year and they already had a logo which was based on a city skyline silhouette (made in Word BTW):

http://www.gooledevelopmenttrust.org.uk/

I tried my best to improve the original but I still find it quite hard on the eyes.

There’s definitely a market out there for the low-cost logo. When I started out I built up a great deal of experience working for almost nothing, it got me where I am today, it’s nothing to be ashamed of. I would work solidly for a couple of hours on two ideas, the business would pick one and that’s that.

That’s why I still continue to offer an affordable service alongside my premium options. There will always be a builder, electrician or a roofer who needs more business, so needs an identity to put on an advert.

The larger companies would never go for the low-cost option though. I’ve worked on some branding projects that have gone on for months that have had me tearing my hair out, but were worth it when the pay cheque came.

I dunno, there are some really good, quality logo making programs out there for those that do not have or know how to use Photoshop.

Jess
http://www.web-privacy.pro.tc

I might not design the logo myself, but I definitely will not use your service.

As a software guy who has felt the pain of seeing his profession commoditized, I do empathize. Yep, it sucks. Your job is to either demonstrate the value of using YOU over such alternatives, or to move on and let them learn their lesson. Maybe they’ll never learn their lesson, maybe they’re incapable of learning. Maybe they’ll come back to you later when they’ve learned their mistake. Maybe not.

The last freelance designer I worked with on a logo just wasn’t listening to me. Also, I think he was drunk constantly. In no way am I saying this is a representative experience, but it has left my business site (a wreck of its own) with a less than optimal logo, and underwhelming motivation to go with a so-called “professional” freelance designer for a new logo. If I can buy a logo package from an established small business for $500, and get guaranteed professionalism and high production values, what motivates me to go with an independent?

As a designer, I agree with you a 100%. I don’t do a great deal of logo work for every reason you have described here. The average Joe, the internet user, won’t be able to tell the difference between a classic logo design process and a 5 min design yourself template site. Which is a shame really. Most of the time it is not even worth trying to explain the difference, it is easier/cheaper to just let it go.

I recently paid $350 USD to have two logos created (both very similar – same font and colours used, just different text and a slight alteration to the graphic). I think I got a great price, as the logos are professional and look great, and are also in vector format, so I can produce different sizes as needed for web, print, etc.

Insightful and right to the point! Awesome article. Great work, Jacob.

This article is 100% on the money. So many bad logos out there done quickly by amateurs with little thought or talent.

The other major thing to remember is that the logo is only a fraction of the companies brand. Typography, colour, photography and tone of voice all work together to make up the personality of a companies communication and marketing.

I wish I could show this to all my potential clients. Entrepreneurs need to understand that your logo is much more than just a symbol…it’s what people are going to remember you by.

Bytheway, if you are need a logo…visit http://www.verzmedia.com

Excellent article !! however i would like to ask that how important is a logo for a free blog ? I have seen many blogs and professional websites of companies with sloppy logos.

Thanks

If you can spot a bad Logo, you should be able to recognize a good one, you should therefore be able to design your own and know when you have a good one.

Unfortunately, Professional Logo Designers™ have a fairly dismal track record of late… The Pepsi and Xerox rebranding exercises (and associated price tags) point overwhelmingly towards the conclusion that the field lies fallow.

BTW, you do realize that both the ‘Head’ and ‘DVV’ logos you cite were the product of design houses who employ *many* Logo Design Professionals™, don’t you?

Irony FTW

Sorry dude, but if your marketing strategy includes articles like this, which reads like the avuncular guidance provided ‘as a courtesy’ by entrenched mid ’50’s professional associations, you don’t know marketing.

And if you don’t know marketing, you shouldn’t be designing logos. Period.

Well, all though I agree that a logo is important not everyone has thousands to spend on a logo so the services you’ve listed above come in handy. The people that use those services(including myself) either A.) Don’t have a lot of money to spend on a logo or B.) Don’t think it really matters in the grand-scheme of things. Let me explain.

As a developer(web and application) I probably prototype and create a couple websites and applications a month. Most of these programs I need logos for but there is no way I’m going to drop a ton of money on logos for each program, that would be thousands of dollars each month on just logo design. *Nuts*. So, I’ve used, and still do use three of the services you listed above. I’ve used the design contest site three times and I was happy with the results twice. I’ve use a logo service once and I was really happy with the price and service. And, mostly I use the self serve model mixed with stock images. For me this works, for others it wont but to say that using any of these services is bad is wrong. Everything has a purpose and these services fill my purpose and I’m sure a lot of others.

* I will say this though. If any of my products every takes off or I feel that I will need to present myself to anyone important I would probably pay to have a proper design done. This holds true for not only the logo but the website, icon(s), images and even the text(not designer but copywriter).

*Also, as a web design site obviously most the people are going to agree; no designer is going to say it’s okay to use an out of the box solution but sometimes it is.

you heard of the recession right? i get that you’re tryin to make a buck and 99designs is pissing you off, but please dude, this thing wreaked of “AHHH I NEED A CHECK AND TO JUSTIFY TO MY PARENTS THAT STUDYING LOGO DESIGN IN COLLEGE WAS WORTH IT” – really transparent.

Great piece Jacob! You’ve provided educational advice for both designers and potential clients.

Good points here, but the last comment,
“”"
Comparing the design industry to any other is by no means exact, but the, “How much for a logo?” question is kind of like asking an estate agent, “How much for a house?”
“”"
is just totally disingenuous. You’ve spent an entire article complaining about cheap alternatives to logo design – and made a number of good points – but you offer absolutely nothing in comparison in terms of what one should expect to pay for a ‘genuine’ logo.
If I ask a real estate agent ‘how much for a house’, he’d almost certainly, quickly reply with something along the lines of ‘well, it depends on what you’re looking for and how much you are willing to spend, but the average 3 bedroom 2 bath in this area is currently going for X. If you want a pool expect to pay a bit more.’ etc.

Since this rant is basically aimed at the small to medium business owner, I think it would have been pretty reasonable to provide a general estimate for the ‘2 simple examples’ case you mentioned. If you can’t provide a legitimate alternative then you’ve no right to complain about the cost-cutting measures business owners make in order to make ends meet.

Logo contests are not always bad. As long as designers don’t steal or use stock logos, it’s their choice to enter. If they’re good (and some of the designers on that site are REALLY good) then they’re going to win a lot of contests and make a lot of money. If they’re bad (or just starting their career), they’re going to get constructive criticism, good feedback, and build a portfolio quickly.

While I agree the crowdsource method is not the best and spec work is unacceptable in most cases, it’s great for the industry because A. people that have used it only to receive a crappy or stolen logo won’t use it again and WILL shell out the money for a real one next time around and B. designers need to gain experience somehow and what’s better than a real project with real requirements to practice, receive feedback and get better?

Also, 9 times out of 10 my new clients have been screwed over in the past by a designer or a firm and it’s great for me because then they’re extremely impressed by what I have to offer, after seeing the other side of the coin.

Stock Imagery is actually a good place to start, when throwing around ideas. The final logo, however, should not just be stock imagery + custom text.

Of course you’re right about a pro being far and away the best way to go. But you’re not dealing with the reality of today’s internet…which is mostly about fluff and filler and doing everything on a dime (or less). In those cases, a logo design contest at DP is exactly what you want: $10 for something barely better than one could cobble together for one’s self.

But frankly, this post sounded more like a self-affirmation therapy session for design pros who are feeling neglected.

I did like the “Without Feedback” examples, though.

Love the perspective, intuitive, convincing.

But I think your article exposes pervasive misperception for many creative fields (design, copy-writing, etc), greatly enhanced by ubiquitous, cheap technology, overseas labor, and “automated” business models like the ones you reference.

While this democratization of the creative industry might be seen as a good thing — less hierarchical, more accessible — it poses a challenge to the craft-oriented pro’s who have dedicated years and taken out design school loans in an effort to refine and finesse their product output with subtlety and grace.

The way that we have managed to cope with this differential in expectation is to be very clear about our process, price-points, and to be honest about the vertical level of our customer base. We are clear that our rate is $75/hour for design and development services, and this appeals to a very specific niche, and affords a fairly specific number of iterations per design.

This clarity saves time for both our leads/customers, and us as a business. And over time, we’ve built a great satisfied customer base.

That all said, I have to concur with the comments of Paul Annesley (#5), having utilized 99designs (only in a pinch!), the community of which has produced some good designs and displayed impressive sensitivity. This process does, however, miss some of the intimacy of a true custom design process.

Nice, Jacob.

I recently had the displeasure of educating another designer as to why these contests are a bad idea. His take on it was, “Why bother working with clients that don’t understand? Just focus on the ones that do.” Point taken. But in my opinion, it’s our ethical responsibility to continue educating ourselves, fellow designers and the general population as to what effective design is really all about. If all we do is focus on the ones that “get it,” we will soon run out of prospective clients. Continuing to educate – as you have done with this post – is invaluable to every designer and every business owner.

Thank you for writing this.

Logo design contests are great, its the only way I go. I get my pick of 5-10 designs for less then $20.

Designers these days are a dime a dozen, be happy you get the work.

Have you ever thought that all site owners can’t afford a small fortune for a logo?
I do not disagree that a site logo is very important but seriously … how much would you have charged me for your logo on this site? It is beautiful work … but how much for it?

Logo design contests are terrible for the design industry. It’s as simple as that. Contests promote spec work, which hurt professionals. Doing work and not getting paid for it is a bad road to follow and design students should be learning this. Learning the business aspects of the creative industry is just as important as the creative work itself.

HAHAHA. Those “without feedback” pictures are hilarious.

This was a disappointing article. There’s no substance to it other than ‘hire a logo designer,’ which is a self-serving message and therefore suspect in my book. There is also room for amateurs in the field, but you totally discourage that, too. How about leave the article writing to someone that does that professionally?

Although a well written article, 99designs.com is a fantastic concept and the quality of designs there exceed many i’ve seen from expensive design specalists. We got a fantastic logo designed there.

Please do not degrade my business model. I am proud to have created a website, which sells poorly crafted, cookie-cutter and often stolen logo ideas, from an off-shore location so I am immune to copyright lawsuits. I hired some poor schmucks from rentacoder on the cheap to build me the site in a customizable fashion, so that I can purchase 100’s of domains, make each site look unique and flood Google with all my sites, making it impossible for anyone to find a decent company. Not only that, but my supposed business contact address is actually some warehouse out in the middle of nowhere.

I’m not making an absolute fortune with it, but it generates some revenue every month.

I also happen to be one of those annoying people, who buy previously used domains and turn them into those useless search portals. And I also sell crappy website templates.

Mr Pleb

(Yes, I’m joking)

Uh. Yeah. Of course logo contests cheapen the industry. But, so what? A beginning designer needs portfolio pieces, an experienced designer might need to make a little extra scratch and the business owner gets something rather than just two overlapping letters. Besides, time and again, I’ve been called in to redesign a logo created by some owner’s nephew or niece and THEN they get it.

Besides, let’s face it, the days of a design firm getting paid $1M to create a new logo for AT&T are over.

Painfully self serving. A website representing used car salesman might give similar advice to foolish little people who imagine they can choose a suitable car and negotiate a reasonable price for it.

Not necessarily disputing what you are saying, but I would like to point out your argument loses weight when you use MS Paint to ‘X’ out the poor logos.

I completely agree with Paul (#5) and dont think this was a good article. It talks about how to NOT design a logo and pointing out the flaws associated with the different “normal” ways of finding companies, but doesn’t give any positive direction towards a PROPER way to find a qualified design company. Regardless, as a new startup business owner, I have used 99designs for my logo and am currently using it for my website design and I ABSOLUTELY have loved the end result from it! Yes, you are right, sometimes there are HORRIBLE designs that are submitted, and some of them use iStockPhotos in the design, but there are also many qualified designers on there that make substantially higher income than they would working for another company. A lot of designers also use sites like this to help get their foot into the design world by establishing clients, building a portfolio, helping them keep the design spark in them, etc. Going by your article, I still dont know how to find a “qualified place” to do design work – what are the requirements, where to find them, what is acceptable $ rate? None of these questions were answered. Regardless, I have been overly satisfied with my results from these competition sites and will continue to use them. There is no difference between crowdsourcing design work and having Requests for Proposals either by the government or for other companies designing a model of what a new building would look like before built – no guarantee they win the contract.

-Satisfied crowdsourcing contest holder.

I work in the Architectural field, the contest is very similar to a design submittel. We do this all the time so the client can get a feel for which firm has the best grasp of the ideas that is desired. If the firm is placed on a short list, they are then paid to develop the idea further. The pay is usually just enough to flesh out the shape and plan with no detail at all. From there the client chooses the one Architect for the job.

Credit to b3ta for the phalic logs? http://www.b3ta.com/features/phalliclogoawards/

Yeah.. agree with you..

a logo is a small but not easy i think..

I’ve got you all beat. The absolute worst way to get a logo designed is to go on Yahoo Answers and ask for a complete stranger to volunteer to do it for you for free. I see that question on the site every day.

http://help4flirts.com/images/logo_ya.gif

This is the fear mongering from the “designers” who try to hopelessly overcharge for their … ehrm… “professional” logo design.

Let’s be clear: designer = often talented artist who never made the leap into the *real world, and is desperately trying to make money off a personal hobby

That’s like me trying to make a career out of rock climbing. Possible, not likely. Maybe I’d find odds and ends ways to make a (barely) living from it, sure.

Also, nobody gives a shit about your logo. Unless you’re a Fortune 1000 and investing huge dollars into name recognition, for 95% of businesses out there, who. gives. a. shit. I have built and sold several passably successful businesses, so I’m not entirely clueless on the topic, and if you are building a small biz, the last thing you need to spend time, capital, and worry on is your stupid logo.

Only one person cares, and that’s you. Your customers care about getting value for their money, ie. the product or service you provide. IF they find you that is, meaning you spending a lot of time to get in front of people (and by that I don’t mean you as in some artfully designed squiggly lines).

*real world = place where $ is paid for skills that tangibly contribute to revenue generation, a place where 0.0000001% of designers are a) truly able to translate a corporate image into a compelling visual and b) anybody with real money and a serious business needs that talent – and all those guys work for AGENCIES.

Get a $20 logo. Or pay a starving artist about 100 bucks if it really makes you happy.

I concur. Under no circumstances should anyone work without the guarantee of payment. Unless of course, you like working for free.

Love this post. Logo design contests are the worst!

Sounds like it was written by a logo designer looking to justify high fees – short on design tips, long on reasons you should pay more for it.

Wow, this sounds like a pretty one-sided article from someone with a vested interest to me. Why is it not surprising that a website geared toward web designers would try and talk people out of making logos themselves, holding contests or using stock/free imagery? Gee, I guess that only leaves one choice. This reminds me of last year’s press release where water bottle companies said that refilling water bottles is dangerous to our health and that we should all stop doing that immediately (which is free) and continue buying water bottles full of water from them. What a crock.

I’m not saying there’s not some good advice in this article, but it doesn’t appear to be very neutral in tone.

An exception (much to our young glee) was the deliberate (I believe) HEAD skis logo.

Hell, we bought HEAD skis just for the logo!

It is a good article, but I do take issue with the contest part. If a company is a startup and has a very limited budget, why not look to a contest site to help design your brand? I have seen some amazing things on Worth1000’s “jackpot” contests – designs that would cost hundreds or thousands of dollars if done professionally.

Also, contests are a great way for graphic design students to hone skills – especially if there is good feedback on your entry.

Excellent list. I wrote an article a long time ago titled “9 rules to creating a logo you can live with and still get paid” that covers even more on the subject: http://tr.im/3gnm

And by the way, have you guys heard of LogoInstant? http://tr.im/3gpi – they give away logos – free… Un-be-freakin-lievable!

I could care less about a logo; I look quality of product and/or service a company offers. My opinion of a company is based mostly on reviews… NOT a logo. I pay no mind to a logo. Would Google have failed if the letters in their logo were all black rather than pretty colors? Nope. Would people close all their Yahoo! accounts if Yahoo! decided to go with a logo that was designed for free? People don’t care. These companies got great reputations from the servises they offer–not a silly logo.

A logo is next nothing. Give the people what they want and they’ll be happy.

I disagree with the point about contests as large logo design projects are often placed out to tender to 5+ design firms or freelancers. This is essentially the same thing.

For example, the much loved Obama ‘08 logo was borne out of a ‘contest’ of sorts.

Sadly, it can go wrong as the London 2012 Olympics logo was also subject to a similar process.

As for the rest of the points, pretty much spot on ESPECIALLY the one about DIY logos.

I worked on a web project last year and they already had a logo which was based on a city skyline silhouette (made in Word BTW):

http://www.gooledevelopmenttrust.org.uk

I tried my best to improve the original but I still find it quite hard on the eyes.

I am a freelance web developer by trade and have used logo design contents many times. In particular 99designs.com.

I set out my requirements pay a very small sum to start my competition. After which I wait for the designs to come rolling in. If I don’t like any then I can walk away without paying a penny more. More often that not the designs are of excellent quality and I choose one to my liking.

Sounds like you’re worried about competition from these sites.

Yea, you are correct.. price is not important.. its all about Quality !

http://www.ezzal.com

In this article, a logo designer thinks you should spend a lot of money on logo design. Shocking turn of events. Good luck in the economic downturn.

Thank you a million times over! Let this not JUST pertain to logo design, but to the whole damn internet-based commercial art world.

Loved your closing line, “Comparing the design industry to any other is by no means exact, but the, “How much for a logo?” question is kind of like asking an estate agent, “How much for a house?””

This sounds more like propaganda in order to discourage people from trying their own hand at a design, or to discourage amateurs/upstarts from designing a logo.

No really, the way your presented this article reminds me of the guy who tried to sell me his truck a year ago (I didn’t buy it).

What you didn’t mention is that it is usually ILLEGAL under the terms and conditions of most stock sites to use stock vectors as logos. That’s a huge reason not to use stock for a logo because you most likely will be dealing with legal issues.

You designers are funny, most people who are not designers have no care about logos. Particularly in today’s economy people want goods for the right price they don’t care about the logo on the item or store.

Sergey Brin made the original google logo, and it seems to have fared well over the years.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_logo

First off, I want to say that I completely agree with *some* of your statements, but others really depend on the size of company and the goal of the logo. I’ve used elance.com to find designers for two logos that I was very happy with. Each charged about $300, and I truly like the design. One is at http://www.gulfsoft.com (the big G with our name under it) and the other is at http://www.exactlycorp.com. While neither is completely revolutionary, they’re MUCH better than I could have done, and, like I said, I like them both.

This type of article has been done so many times already. Why bother?

Great article and very timely!

Wow, could this article be more self-serving? You act as if designing a logo is akin to painting the Sistine Chapel. It’s logo design! Anyone with a little artistic talent and some common sense can come up with a logo that doesn’t turn the mind to thoughts of penises and anal rape. There is some good advice in here about using the logo “makers” but for the most part the point of the article is to assign some difficultly level to designing a logo that simply doesn’t exist.

There is not really 1 solid answer to this question. For a large company I can definitely see handling your logo design with an identity design firm that can consult about all the various aspects that are impacted by a full identity design. That’s a huge deal and there certainly are no ways to cut corners if you want it done both professionally and correctly.

That said, there is plenty of room for logo contest style sites in the marketplace. Not everyone’s needs are the same. A small non-profit looking to spruce up letterhead, or their web presence, but lacking in financial resources, will likely find those sites a great source for logos and designs.

The argument I always hear is that it devalues the work of designers and design firms. No designers and design firms are competing for work in this way. Similarly, companies that would traditionally go to a design firm for their identity design work aren’t going to logo contest sites. So the effects of this non-professional market on the professional market and their “value” are negligable at best because they serve two totally different sets of clientelle.

The bottom line is finding what is the best product for your company. That’s a matter of judgement.

I’ve had many clients come to me with lower budgets than I could accomplish their logo with. Rather than turn them away because they couldn’t afford me, I’ve referred them to Logoworks.com, a company that a friend of mine started and later sold to HP. The majority of them have been pleased with the result. So some of those “Too Good To Be True” logo design companies have their place in this world, and I’m glad they do. It allows me to charge a premium price for a premium service and leave the unrealistic timelines and low budgets to the other guys.

re: Stock photography for logos

To further illustrate your point about stock images in logos, on iStockphoto it is against the license agreement to use purchased images for incorporation into a logo.

when I first clicked the link to this page, I thought you were just going to show the OKC Thunder logo, which would have summed up all your points nicely.

The one logo that always gets me is the one for the Mayflower moving vans… It looks like a hand giving the middle finger (hull of “mayflower” is the palm, bow of the ship looks like the thumb, and the sails look like fingers).

Mostly good advice but I have to disagree with the “feedback” comment. Everybody has an opinion. “Design by committee” is never a good way to come up with something that needs to meet a definitive creative problem. You need to be qualified (briefed on the objective) to give accurate feedback.

Whatever you say– the LogoInstant guys are still awesome http://www.logoinstant.com

One good thing about the Logo Contest sites is that it does allow budding designers to get experience creating designs. It might not pay off for them now, but the experience hopefully lets them develop into better designers.

Great post Jacob. Glad to see that lots of people are reading it.

nice article……. thanks for the post

I have personally had a good experience with http://www.LogoBids.com. In fact, the only problem I had was making the final choice! There were at least 4 designs I thought were good.

The underlying problem with your post is a ‘designer’ isn’t a specialized position like it was, 5 to 10 years ago. Today’s computer users are mostly comfortable manipulating images and are pretty good with photoshop. So getting clients to actually sit down and commission a logo from one person is only going to get harder.

As a client looking for a logo, I would rather go with a contest and have 20 or 30 people take a swing at my design. At least (for 50-100 bucks) I’ll have a better idea of where I want to take my logo, and how I may or may not use the final design. But I bet it will get me to a starting point on where to go with the final few iterations of that logo. And it’s better to spend the big bucks at that point, than drop a few grand up front and have what pops out be mediocre.

The reality of today is people have tools out there to do your job for free. Granted years of training and degrees do give you a leg up, but that advantage will be narrowed as more and more common people get used to things like photoshop (or all it’s open source competitors) and have access to the same level of training on the web.

And that’s what it comes down to if you want to be a good designer…practice and research. Something I really don’t need a degree or guidance on. Once I’ve built up enough of a portfolio, I can go job hunting…and will continue to participate in the ‘design contests’ because it’s something I love to do…not something I need to get paid for.

The only problem I have with this article is the notion that it takes months to complete a logo. Most of my clients don’t have “months” or want to wait “months” for their logo design. Not only that, but you can have an idea for a logo the first day you read the brief and have it done in the next day or two visually perfect if you know what you’re doing. 8/10 of my first concepts are approved with at the most a very minor revision. Just because you get a fast result doesn’t mean “no thought has been put into the design”. That’s absolutely ridiculous. If you’re a good designer, you know the target market for the logo you’re producing, you build an understanding of the client’s industry, and you know how the logo will be used and you use that information in your logo’s design.

Just my opinion on the matter. I’d need about 10 pages to fill in the gaps but I’ll leave it at that.

Photoshop should not be used to design a logo. A vector program like Adobe Illustrator is prime.

People use the term “designer” haphazardly. A lot of people call themselves designers but they really just know how to make something look pretty. A true designer can come up with a concept-driven solution, is not bound to one style and makes decisive aesthetic decisions tailored to the end-use of the piece.

@Jared- you make a good point.

There’s a big difference when you come up with a logo for a small company versus a large company. Large companies usually have multiple key officers who are in on the decision while smaller companies have one or two people that need to be satisfied. This directly relates to how long the logo design process can take.

Hi Jacob, thanks for putting on the web what we’ve been telling clients and prospects for ever.

Biased article.

Can anyone say “conflict of interest”.

Trying to drum up business for himself etc etc etc.

Great point, no one should ever attempt to design a logo themselves, because they don’t know the secrets of this highly scientific, complicated and difficult process. Puhleeeze.

Telling people what not to do, without providing viable alternatives is pointless. Of course, this is a self-serving article and what you’re really telling people is, “Hire me!” But, you realized that it was probably a bit too obvious and tacky to say it outright so, instead you’ve just failed to provide alternatives or estimates of what may be an average price for a logo.

As abc (#16) said, it’s disingenuous to claim that you can’t give at least a vague estimate. Your real estate analogy falls apart for exactly the reasons that abc pointed out.

I love all the expert “stars” commenting on this article. Love the photos….why, I felt like I was at a photographers looking for models to use in my next “graphic designer” modelling shoot! Why, I betcha some of you have been designing as experts for almost 2 or three years now!!!!!! But, in all seriousness, this was a great article. And, once you’ve delt with clients that have been using every trick in the book…and now the net…for over 25 years, you’ll be able to look back at this and say, “gee! NOTHING HAS *cking changed!” Happy designing…oh, and you may want to learn Chinese. LOVE the black and white style glamour shots! And the close ups! That isn’t over used is it?

Fail.
The result is king; if it works, it doesn’t matter who or where it came from (see Nike).

@Joey

You mention the availability of tools like Photoshop, but remember it is just a tool. Knowing how to use it is not a substitute for design talent. Hammers and saws have been readily available for centuries. How many people do you know who built their own homes? How many look for the most cut-rate carpenter, or hold “build me a house” contests? Unfortunately, the availability of digital tools gives people the mistaken impression that tools are all they need to get a job done.

Does the Ma & Pa bakery need a high concept, top-notch logo? Of course not. However, many start-ups begin with stars in they eyes, envisioning a huge future. If they were committed to this goal, they would realize the importance of their brand and put it in the hands of a pro.

regarding> Every company is different, so it makes sense to tailor a quote to your individual needs.

so if one company is small and underfunded, where its money should be spent on something more important, why should they not use a custom-quick logo design that doesn’t break their piggy bank?

Our site, ffpimp.com, got the logo designed from a contest at 99designs.

http://99designs.com/contests/14640

The results? Absolutely AMAZING.

Sorry, but who needs to hire a designer when you can have 100 compete for $500?

Gotta say it, but The B from the D #12 is far more on then the article really was. I am a designer, with an MBA to boot. Elitism is going to be the death of the creative artistic industry. I have no care for time spent or lost on a design. If it doesn’t get used today, it could be valuable tommorrow, no matter if it is in parts or if it is purely by experience gained. I can’t count the number of projects that i have done for free, that have provided an extreme degree of growth as a designer, as well as an increase in my personal visibility.

You know the swoosh only costed 35 bucks?

I’ve it designed myself and everyone loves it and I have successfully used a dremel instead of a dentist (no kidding).

“designers should not have to invest time and resources with no guarantee of payment.”
Right, and musicians should never have to submit music on spec either. Same thing.

Quality ….perhaps we should have gone there!

A must read article for logo designers.

Gopal Raju,
http://www.productivedreams.com
http://twitter.com/gopalraju

“Written by a true professional logo designer who charges big bucks for logo design! Don’t try doing it yourself…you can’t! Hire me!” – Randy Orton

Amen to that, you want big bucks for drawing pretty pictures. While some of the things you say in this article may be true, they are irrecoverably tainted by your profession.

I’d like to see more ways for the clients who WANT quality design (and who are willing to pay for it) to quickly find great designers. There’s plenty of contests and cheap deals now but finding designers who may be expensive but who can deliver exceptional quality and unique logos is not so easy.

Some people are always going to want cheap + fast logos. They can’t seem to understand (or just don’t care) that a logo may go through ten, fifty, 100+ different versions as it is being created and refined and think they should only pay for the creation of the final version of the logo. That’s fine, they can take their chances with the cheap services — and they may even get good results sometimes. The process by which a client selects a designer to collaborate with on creating a BRAND remains far more interesting and compelling to me.

Excuse me but pull your head out from the sand.

Your article while well written account for only a specific demographic. There are plenty of undercapitalised businesses to whom a stock logo would be great in place of their only other option, nothing at all.

There are plenty of great sites on the internet offering quality design at a reasonable price.

And you completely missed the point that there are plenty of slick internet companies that offer better design than the many idiotic people out there who buy a PC, pirate a copy of Coreldraw and star a design business. I’ve seen many people pay good money for a crap logo from a complete moron, just because they themselves have no clue.

Who cares, logos are overrated. They are all orbital swirls with junk and stuff. Just look at the crap at the top of this web page. I would rather see well laid out text than 100’s of images that are 5×5 pixels just to make a corner of a table rounded – oooooh.
Art is overrated.

Nice article, is it possible for me to use it in my website, please note I am asking for permission…if you say no…then that is that.

Please contact me at my email address.

Thanks for this, i completely agree. People don’t realize how important logo design is and how it has the capability to make or break a company’s image. There are so many cheap logo makers or free options out there and they are just terrible. For any serious company, there needs to be serious and well done artwork. Every company should have custom art because I can’t imagine anything worse then having your logo the same as someone else’s out there. Thanks for your ideas.

thank you for this. i’m sick of the too good to be true dealers undercutting, ruining, and cheapening the field.

Great article! We tried to make our own logo – big mistake!
Let me add 3 things:

1) Work with an individual, not a company.
You want someone who listens to your goals, your ideas. Someone who works with you.
2) Ask to see examples of their work.
3) Be sure your price includes all the source material so you can resize,
and reuse in many formats.

After wasting time (and living with a crappy logo for 6 months) we found an inexpensive professional who made a great logo for only a few hundred bucks, and our business improved almost immediately. His portfolio is here.

http://www.bitstar.com/portfolio.pdf

Nice presentation.

One challenge is that logo designs are iterative. If you outsource each iteration of a design to a different designer, you lose the context of a previous iteration. So 99designs is compelling because you get lots of submissions.

For His Catalog (http://hiscatalog.com), we looked at 99designs carefully, but decided to pass in favor of creating a simple logo in-house. I liked the optionality of 99designs because of the expected volume of submissions. Unless you know a designer personally, it’s hard to be confident up front whether one person will be able to come up with the best logo. But 99designs feels like it should have a lemons problem – the designers are there for a fast buck.

Elance and oDesk seem to work well for outsourcing development, why can’t a similar model work for logo design?

You might wanna keep in mind that not everyone can go the professional route, so going to a company that does spec work or allows contests is a good alternative. It may not be right in your eyes but that doesn’t mean others can’t still can’t get good work by ‘underground designers’ who are knowingly doing spec work.

Get off your high horse.

If it costs a lot of money to change all your collateral material, display ads, etc, then pay a designer a bunch of money to make your logo, If you are going to put it on all the city buses then hire a professional.

If you are sticking it on your email and maybe a business card, then it is not the end of the world if you change your logo. Good logo design is an art form, but some times you do not need a great logo.

Also, I second the comparison with Google. It has done fine with a simple logo.

Also, too many graphic artists are babies about their work. I hate when they tell my clients they won’t do something or try and act all high and mighty. You are doing work for someone else, if you do not like it, don’t put it in your portfolio.

Andrew

As the founder of http://www.logotournament.com I’m going to throw my opinion into the ring.

In regards to contests you say that “the quality is usually far from anything you would want to represent your business”.

I get a bit of a chuckle out of this. If the quality was really so bad, the AIGA/NO-SPEC crowd wouldn’t have the slightest care about the contest sites. In reality the HIGH QUALITY of certain design contests is precisely what causes certain designers to become inflamed. Some designers will become infuriated the first time they visit a contest site and see work superior to their own being submitted to a contest with many competitors, especially if the prize is less than what they charge. This is a game changer and many know it. Those who are in denial run sites like No-Spec and expect to hold back the flood gates. They can’t, and they are running out of energy: the No-Spec blog hasn’t had anything to say since August 2008.

Properly done contests are a threat to the existing design establishment and their livelihoods. But business is about continual change, and here it is. Graphic design is business before art, otherwise who would complain about designers doing what they love in a contest?

You also said: “Designers should not have to invest time and resources with no guarantee of payment.”

Who determines what a designer should and should not do? I would like to think that individuals can make an informed decision on whether contests are worth it or not.

One of the common arguments against contests is someone will rattle off a list of well regarded professions and say: “These professions don’t do work on spec, so why should a graphic designer do so?” Many industries contain or are based on spec work. Many Lawyers work exclusively on spec: it’s called “No Win. No Pay”. Realtors, sales professionals, huge ad agencies, etc. do so as well.

One thing I don’t want on our site is designers wasting their time. And that is why I have implemented a designer ranking system. What happens over time is the wheat gets separated from the chaff and the better designers ascend to the top which aids in winning more, while the others improve or find a better way to spend their time.

Almost every LogoTournament customer is thrilled with the service. One of the things I hear all the time is: “I met with a local designer, and after three weeks s/he came up 3 options and I didn’t like any of them.” Or “I met with a company and they wanted wayyy too much money”. With our service a client can fill out a brief, receive and rank 50-200+ concepts, and then download their winning files in under a week. With a local designer they would be lucky if they could get an initial meeting in that time frame. Put yourself in the shoes of a busy small business owner, which one would you pick?

Great article!

That’s a pity who really needs a logo will not read this article. At least some of them will, or at least I hope so!

Yes. Do not use those guys on web forums who are hustling for your buck. Go with APPROVED DESIGNERS. Buy union proud. If those guys on the forum were any good they’d be a member of the union and charging more. If you need a $30 logo, come back when your business is big enough to pay our fees.

riiiiiiight…. so nobody but G.A.’s have a scene of balance, design, ingenuity or artistic vision.

My main concern for this article is that the title is very misleading.

It isn’t about “How NOT To Design A Logo”, it felt more like “Do NOT Design A Logo”.

Great design is not always expensive, nor does it have to take a long time. The Nike “swoosh” logo was designed by Caroline Davidson, a college student, in the early ’70s. She was paid a whopping $35 for her quick work.

Sure, Nike’s logo is a wild exception. But let’s not generalize and say just because it’s inexpensive, it’s bad design.

Truly great, award-wining design can be accomplished on a budget. The advice “don’t do it” is not nearly as useful as something perhaps more obvious: “just know what you’re buying.” A do-it-yourself logo might be rigtht for some.

Whether or not a logo is good, effective, wonderful (etc) has nothing to do with the price that was paid for it. It has to do with, realistically speaking, how much time and effort people (in this case designers) are going to put into the development of same. Or the skill level and experience of designer that’s attracted by the price being paid. Shouldn’t come as a big shock that the less money involved, the less time and effort. And the skill/experience of the designer. It’s a simple matter of economics and human nature.

When design is pared down to contests, there’s only a *chance* of getting paid, so many people entering take short-cuts through stock photos and art or worse, pinching designs from elsewhere (or even stealing concepts from fellow entrants). Is it possible to get a decent logo via a logo contest? Yes. Is there a chance that some of the designs will be ‘influenced’ by others – absolutely. In fact, that liability waiver is something that’s part of every contest site’s terms of service. Is there a chance that an established designer will pass off a ripped design in a one-on-one or studio situation? Yes, but its very, very slight. People get fired for such transgressions and reputations are ruined. On contest sites it’s simply a matter of registering a new screen name. And as they’re not getting paid in the first place. many view copying others as a ‘nothing to lose’ proposition.

There’s also the lack of interaction between client and designer, despite some of these contest sites marketing themselves as ‘crowdsourcing’ platforms (where the community works together on a common goal as opposed to against each other). In fact, most logo contests expect the client to ‘direct the show’ rather than working *with* the designer. That’s not value *of* logo contests. That’s value that the client *brings* to the contest. It’s call art directing. Can that still work? Yes. Is it a great solution for either the designer or the client? No.

I noticed upthread that someone opined that good designers are “a dime a dozen”. I wish that were true. Hiring a good designer is often extremely challenging – just because someone has a working knowledge of illustrator does not make them a designer. No more than knowing how a Dremel works makes one a dentist (though apparently someone upstairs has tried). The rest of their quote goes something like this; “Designers these days are a dime a dozen, be happy you get the work”. Unfortunately, this is the attitude of many design contest ‘holders’. Ask yourself this – do you want to work with this cat on ANY design project, UNLESS he’s paying you a fortune? I’d rather shovel fries at Mikey Dees.

In terms of criticizing a professional designer for defending his craft, his industry and his way of making a living, I find it odd that designers would take offense. Anytime anyone wants to make an argument for people in my trade making more money, hell, I’m all for it.

What about the google logo, that was designed by Sergey in a few minutes using Gip… doing all this crazyness for a startup might be an overkill

For anyone starting a small business the concept of dropping thousands of dollars on a logo for your letterhead or website is typically a complete waste of resources. It is akin to buying a super-sophisticated phone system or copy machine that is simply a want instead of a need. This of course assumes that you are not already wealthy and don’t mind squandering money on useless crap.

Building a business without incurring enormous debt means paring expenses to the bone and maximizing the utility of your time. Your money and time are strictly finite resources and if you do not deploy them efficiently you will be history. We know- we’ve survived economic downturns, built our business slowly over 15 years and watched our competition slowly die due to excessive debt, absurd deployment of limited capital and just plain lack of attention to details. They all had beautiful web sites and logos that probably consumed tens of thousands of dollars that could have been far better spent. No one remembers those websites. Our customers remember what we did for them- not the typeface on our letters.

We have no debt and pay our people top dollar- they are the core of your business. I strongly suggest that although graphically nice websites are aesthetically satisfying the final deals are pretty much made on price- and in this day and age you had better be the low cost supplier or you will be ignored. There are only a few folks who can behave like Apple. We’ve found that a simple website with eyecatching photos are what draw attention- not elaborate logos or exotic typefaces. Those are noticed by average people about as often as the hinges of doors. Most text is simply ignored. What is most important is that there is a real live person to answer the phone that knows what the hell they are talking about. A team that responds promptly to inquiries with a detailed proposal that shows you’ve done this before and provides the product, supporting materials and followup to make the sale a good experience. That is so rare these days you will look like a shining star.

For anyone trying this new business thing just be aware that you will work like a slave for years at sub-minimum wages. Really best if your partner has a “real job” in some wholly unrelated field. The folks who get external funding are few and far between and they are really just employees. Employees of men who are very serious about their money and getting a return. They get paid first if you really create a cash flow. They are quite unromantic about your particular endeavor and will pull the plug just as fast as they became engaged.

Good luck and be a cheapskate on the fluff.

What I find interesting is that in the examples of phallic logos, there is an obvious professional design (Head). Professionals aren’t perfect.

Great post , btw I badly need Logo my self since I just remodeled Livecrunch (no.1 tech crunched news blog)

Dude, get over yourself. It’s not hard. Start with a primary shape, circle, square, triangle or the like. Combine it with a letter from the name. Add color, simplify, add a single accent, simplify again.
Check you can print it in a mag, on a card, send it by fax and put it on a ball cap. If not, start again.
Make sure that it’s not the same damn thing as some one else.
Done.
If you are one of these gurus that charge $100k for corporate image branding etc. then congratulations. If you work for $1000 per job and want to make $100k but are getting your lunch eaten by $150 jobs then sorry for your luck.
Starving artists, starving musicians and starving graphics designers are starving because most people can do what they do, they are not that special, but they like it so they suffer.

Although I understand your point-of-view – I would have similar feelings in the realm of software development – your observations are completely unrealistic on the smaller ends of scale. Start-ups and personal projects absolutely require this level of cost to increase the solvency of the venture. I get that the end-product might not be of “professional” quality, but I submit that the best entrepreneurs understand how to balance cost and quality somewhere between, but neither cr@ppy nor professional to optimize cost while still maintaining the potential of the project.

so i’m guessing you’re an out-of-work logo designer?

it’s just funny that all the logo’s that come to mind, every logo that caught my attention and remained in my memory are those made by the owner of the company, a co-worker who did it on the side, made by coincidence, or made it as cheap as possible

i’m thinking about wal-mart, nike, coca cola, google, etc.

i simply can’t think up those highly designed logo’s
they just don’t come to mind

can anyone give examples?

Thank you for this write up. There are some great points in here that any design business can use to explain to their clients the significance of have a logo professionally designed compared to going the less expensive route. It’s all about branding the right way!

i disagree about the contest part

http://www.rackdic.com

I stumbled onto this blog and I’m not in the design field. Rather, I work in a company that would hire a designer. I have to wholeheartedly agree with Keith in comment #77. There is value to having a professional custom product – but from a business standpoint, it’s always going to come down to a judgment call and balance of dollars and “sense”. If the company that I work for wanted to redesign their corporate logo – they need to pony up some cash for professional work. Likely, they’re probably going to hire a design company that specializes in the industry – and likely have a few contacts sitting in a file somewhere. At the same time – for my personal small online business, I’m going to spend little money (if any) on a logo. I wasn’t even aware of “logo competitions” – thanks! Now I know where to go to get cheap logos!

It appears your industry is being cheapened by “designers” that are undercutting you. Well guess what, this happens in every industry – especially ones that are oversaturated with suppliers. Design definitely appears to be oversaturated. The byproduct: when the market is oversaturated – guess what? I get to name my price! Instead of whining about the situation – why don’t you try doing what every other successful business does – learn how to survive and flourish in a competitive marketplace. It’s not going to get any better – anyone born after 1980 knows their way around a computer. You’re in an extremely competitive market – thats your choice. Quit whining. Try finding a niche market where quality design work is valued and specialize.

I hate designing logos, primarily because I suck at it. Great article – I will know what not to do, although, I am cheap, so I will probably always end up designing my own logos.

Another take on the discussion at WHOREDcanvas….
http://ezine.whoredcanvas.net/?p=53

and also an interesting perspective here: http://99designs.wordpress.com/2008/09/05/how-99designs-changed-one-designers-life/

Thanks a lot! I knew of only 2 design contest sites. Now I know 10 where I can post my project.

This is nothing more than protectionist drivel seemingly designed to scare people away from amateur/non-professional designers.

I’m a particularly big fan of the irony of “$199 logo design” ads from google ad words.

Hilarious! How could that beauty salon logo designer not see what they’d done?

I agree with most points of the article, but there’s a market for every budget, that’s the bottom line. At garysimon.net, I’ve literally designed over 500-600 logos within the past 15 months since I started taking orders through the site.. That number sounds daunting to anyone, but it’s really not so much work. I offer 1 primary concept and work with revisions from that point. The overwhelming majority of clients I take care of, end up happy/satisfied. I’ve stroke a balance that I enjoy, and my clients enjoy.

Also, I’ll be recording a nice video soon to post up on the blog that has to do with logo design contests – to say the least, it should be interesting

The article states,

“I highly recommend against this and suggest you leave the design to a professional, much as you would leave your dental work to a dentist.”

Well, of course you’d recommend that. It’s good for your pocketbook. I don’t think it’s a fair comparison. A bad logo never gave anyone a lethal infection and a logo designer never killed anyone with improper anesthesia. And I’ll bet a logo designer doesn’t have to take six+ years of math/science intensive classes, take (and pay for) mandatory continuing education, pass state bar exams, carry malpractice insurance or any of the other things one does when one is a ‘professional’.

Awesome!

142 comments?! Wow, you sure are a popular guy Walter.

Well I really enjoyed this article. Logo contests are pure evil. I’m glad that topped the list.

Thanks for a great post.

Google’s logo is one of the most recognisable on the planet, it was made by one of the Google’s owners in gimp and he was not a designer.

If you’re so concerned about the jobs of fellow logo designers then why didn’t you go to a web design agency to have your website designed? Instead you chose to circumvent the entire designiary/industrial complex and just pick up whatever was free (WordPress).

Certainly you are taking food out of the mouths of the babies of poor web designers and HTML coders and bringing down the entire industry by your wanton disregard for their talent and need to save a buck.

“Professional logo designers have a strict logo design process that can take weeks or in some cases months to complete a logo.”

Ok, how many professional logo designers are out there? Sure there may be people who spends weeks or months on a logo but:

A) Most people aren’t going to want to wait months for their logo to be designed.

and

B) There are more people out there like me who not only design logos but also design many other things. I personally don’t spend even weeks on a logo as it would interfere with getting the rest of my projects done.

I agree on quality for money etc…
But what for someone like f.e. me?

I’m a dj in a specific style of music, wich is very hard to promote in the country where I live. Graphic and visual, I have 0000 skills, so I have to “buy” one to get my product (wich is me in this case) seen in the market.

The music I play has all the potential for kicking off, but people just don’t really know it, and promotors/clubs here are 99% only open for what andwho they know. So a good logo is a big part of my “way to success”

I’ve proven my talents as a dj for quite some years now, but all by all, I get very few bookings/year.

That means paying like hundreds of euro’s (or dollars, pounds) is quite a heavy investment, wich could pay off, but has no guarantee at all.

So in this case, I’m almost obliged to go for the cheap solutions, wich suck in most cases…

It would be good if there were cheap but quality solutions, but it’s such a heap of crap you have to go through that it disencourages people like me to do it, while it could be a great help for my career (or in somebody else’s case theirs or their product/service)

So, if anyone would know of a good alternative

Excellent content here and a nice writing style too – keep up the great work!

The issue of trust is perhaps the most important. You could get a great looking logo, but how do you know someone hasn’t stolen one or copied elements just to meet the deadline?

Hiring a professional designer should mean they’re not passing another person’s work off as their own. But I think there’s the potential in design community sites for members to draw attention to unoriginal work. Over time, a contributer to such a site can build a reputation like any other professional designer. Whether its good for the design industry is another matter, there’s no doubt it’s reducing prices, and also quality because work is going to be rushed.

I get the impression you don’t think a client has any idea what they would like to see in their logo. Big mistake I would say. You need to give the guy with the cash a little credit (pun intended)

So let me get this straight, you’re against low cost “cookie cutter” logo design, yet you pimp low cost, “cookie cutter” website templates with the advertising on your site?

How’s that any different? Shouldn’t it upset “real” designers that they’re losing money to these types of sites?

Let’s get real. Different world, different times. You have to adapt to the needs of the market. Innovate and provide value and market yourself to the right audience.

I have been there, and done all of those things and have been impressed by some, but definately the majority of the time I am unhappy with the results, even though I thought I was happy.

The biggest problem was that people didn’t give me a chance to try the logo, and possibly have tweaks made to it if I wasn’t 100% happy with it.

For someone who professes knowledge of logo design, you should do yourself a favor and look into the history of logos and find out how they came into use.

Long before they produced tennis racquets, athletic apparel, and shoes, HEAD manufactured what were considered by many to be the best skis in the world. HEAD skis were visually distinctive because they were almost completely free of graphics, branding, etc. with the exception of a single dot placed near the tip of each ski. To skiers, seeing the dot meant that you were looking at a fine pair of planks, and in general, this simple dot is certainly some of the leanest and most distinctive branding icons to come out of the 1950’s.

I suppose the (archaic) HEAD logo you depicted might be considered phallic- if you’re a cat. HEAD produces and markets a range of sports products and (to me) their logos (past and present) convey history and action. Could you, as a designer, possibly come up with anything better for a 60-year-old company with this name and heritage?

No, I’m not employed by HEAD, and I’ve only owned two pairs of skis and one pair of tennis shoes that they’ve made. I do, however, have the three Baker/Blick collections two feet from where I’m sitting. Very good…

I try my logo design myself but it is preferable if anyone tell me the best way to design it…… ????

Logo ‘designers’ are on their way out of the game…and it’s their fault. You’re not going to be paid top dollar for noodling around with adobe products for much longer.

Logos are important, but they’re way overpriced and without any accountability from the design firms. They only count the hits and never the misses. Everyone gets financially raped all the same.

The people running the logo community sites that do the contests and support each other….they made you dorks irrelevant. The cheese moved. Change or be laughed at. It’s not a prediction – it’s what is happening today.

ps: Some of the phallic logos in your example were made by professionals. The irony is that the logo contest communities would never let them fly because they’d get called out immediately due the larger number of eyeballs on the work.

I have designed a logo for my site http://www.ultraoli.info of my own and i think i have to improve it by adding some flamming designs.after reading your posts its really helpfull to understand where am i currently and what i have to do for my best logo design.many thanks mate.

I don’t necessarily agree by not doing a logo by yourself. Except in case when you don’t know what you’re doing

For example. My company’s logo (http://www.primalskill.com) was designed by me.
The circles represents: dream, design, code

I believe that without these 3 ingredients one cannot create a website, web application, etc.

Dream is the biggest circle, design the second largest and code is the smallest, because coding is easy, but without a solid idea and design the whole project is doomed.

The circles are slightly shifted inwards illustrating that the components (dream, design, code) complements each other.

A great article making some really good points and full of useful tips. Regarding the free logo making software, you may be right that online logo makers tend to be a bit generic but some of the logo making application software you can buy is useful, not in itself but if you break open the application packages you can find libraries of swooshes and slashes etc that are at worst inspirational and at best useable !

Says the guy who owns a site with the most cluttered and unmemorable logo I’ve ever seen.

You can try making your own logo just fine. This guy is nuts for comparing a dentist to an artist. People can be awesome designers and artists without any professional training. Likewise, some people who have a Master’s in art and charge thousands of dollars for their art make shit because they don’t have any design sense. The Reddit alien could have been drawn by a five-year-old, yet it works awesome.

My advice is to make something memorable and unique.

Let’s not overlook the pain in the ass factor of tracking of posting in the wrong area of Digital Point and getting banned. This recently happened while trying to hire a content person on D.P. while in another tab commenting on a political discussion. We were banned because of the comment before finishing the RFQ on content in the other tab. The childish behavior can be a bit trying at times.

I disagree 100% with #1 (Logo Design Contests). I’m sorry if designers are now forced to actually compete to be paid, but survival of the fittest. Sites like 99Designs are the pinnacle of an open and free economy.

first of all you need to improve readability on your blog. Red on black is sore on the eyes. Perhaps you could rename it to: How not to present a blog post?

Lame points. No justifications whatsoever. Its just a no-logic list.

Nice

as designer i feel that those design contests are encouraging to jump start for junior learning students and creative designers. though you don’t get much money outta it but get so much concepts to work on. If you are doing it side by side. not as full time !

as business owner, i will not recommend to anybody those contests to hold and get logo design.
other points from your article are really perfect!

I’m no fan of Design contests and I don’t like what it’s doing to our profession. But to say that those who take part in them aren’t creating amazing and professional results is biased. I will never take part in one myself, but I know better than to undermine their collective ability.

Definitely very true, with all the red “X” across all the images. If I need a logo for myself, better do it myself; and of course validate with friends who are experienced in design and graphics. That will help!

STUMBLED!

Another fantastic article, with tips I never really though about.

@all:

Google’s logo is famous just because everybody watch it every-single-day, isn’t a good logo anyway, but google’s search engine is really good, everybody uses google because the engine, no ’cause the logo. Imagine google’s same colors and typo for Microsoft or apple?, would you buy windows with that logo?
- Would you drink a pepsi in a new can with the new “smily” logo?
- Can you imagine “AA” of american airlines with Times new roman – green and yellow?
- “I love New York” without that heart?
- Mc Donalds’ “M” with serif?

C’mon guys, logo designing is a lot more than just draw a circle and put some lines on it, it’s about psycology, graphic design and marketing… i think it worth it to hire a guy or a group of people with knowledge about that subject

I agree with people who thinks that logo design must be made for a professional if you want to sell a product or a service and keep that image in your costumer’s brain.

I agree with you

but i really don’t care

i have a design company in greece (where things are worst even worst from Africa… for designers)

but i still don’t care

because i tired i read in comments that if you have a photoshop you are a designer and you don’t need to go to a university…

things like these make me tired everyone believe that if you have a computer and some imagination you can design

and we spend 4 years + 1 for master just for fun… and we didn’t learn anything , we are some guys who are doing their hobby… and take money for nothing

P.S. sorry for my bad english

i totally agree, but then my question is how do u go about finding a reputable logo designer?

It can come from anywhere, you could be one yourself if you know how to lift a pencil and start sketching.

FYI: A Nike logo costs only $35 back in the 70s.

Very Nice article!
Although Í’m not a logo-designer, I do know what it’s like to see bad designed logo’s.
Recently I worked for my training company as a webdesigner /developer and clients would send me in the most awful logo’s to put on their websites.

The similarity between a bad designed website and a bad designed logo, is that both are very important for the appearrance of a company..

The logo-design contests for example, will only discourage the “designers” to try harder and give the logo that extra need, time, development and care that it deserves.

All very well and nice… but how do you go about finding a decent designer?

I have run and maintained my own website for 5 years, it makes ok money but it has always been done by myself and i am no coder or graphic designer. I have no idea where to even start let alone what i am looking for in a designer to entrust an important part of my business in.

It’s not rocket science to figure out logo design and everything that flows with it is best left for professionals, but how do you find them, and more to the point how do you figure out the good from the bad with no knowledge of the actual field?

Don’t do this… don’t do that… but try what? Look out for what?

I launched a contest here http://www.logobids.com/contests/show/id/138 and I liked the results. Here is why I used the service:

1). I contacted a local design company, went to their office and sat with them and gave them my “ideas”. They charged by the hour, but they didnt pay me for my time to get to their office and sit with them while being away from my company. 3 days later they had 3 renditions of my new logo. I didnt like any of them at all. They started again from scratch. 2 weeks later, nothing usable. I was charged almost $500 for their time. Just a side note: I went to them because the work I saw of theirs was GREAT, but they just couldnt hit it on the spot for me.

2). I went Logoworks and they supplied a few alright logos, but I needed alot of changes to one of them. They made the changes, charged me and then it just still was not right. I spoke to a friend of mine and he recommended logobids.com. I walked away from logoworks and all the money I spent there.

I posted my needs on logobids.com the same day. I got riddled with logos, some good and some worst than my previous. Over all I had about 4 real nice ones to choose from in the end. I could make as many changes as I wanted and not have to pay for those changes – my price was locked in. I got the logo I wanted and my staff and I are happy.

Now, I own a business in a completely different industry. But nevertheless, after reading these articles I do have an opinion on design contest. I think they are a good thing for business owners. I can see how U.S. graphic companies might think they hurt their business, but isnt that what this country is founded on – friendly competition. Could you imagine the U.S. with non-compete laws? I wouldnt want to be a part of that system.

On the flip-side. I am sure that these contest are helping alot of people in countries that have a low pay scale. In some places a $100 is almost a months pay. To them, they are not doing it cheap, its just that they are on a different economic scale than we are.

At the end of the day as a business owner, if I can spend $500 on a logo or $100 on the same service – why spend the $500? I need to stay in business so I can keep my employees around. I dont have money to waste, do you?

I found the article very useful for people to get things right.
What i mean is that i make a living by doing some website layouts and there are people that call them “design”, but i know the truth and the truth is that having some photoshop skills doesn’t make me a designer.

I find that disrespectful and even when my work depends on me doing that kind of things sometimes, i don’t try to fool myself by saying “well… a designer job is overrated anyway”. That is just mediocre.

There are good designers and there are bad designers just like there are good doctors and bad doctors.

I think it’s ok if you want to use your “software and artistic skills” to make some money, as long as your client is aware that you are not a professional and you are offering other kind of service. The client has the right to choose, but if you try to appear as a designer when you are not, that’s a fraud no matter how you put it.

My respect for designers that have invested time, money and effort on their education. They deserve it as any other professional.

There’s no reason to get mad about the inexpensive logo sites, design is a business. All businesses have a bottom line when it’s all said and done, and that is to make money. You can either sit there and cry and whine or you can improve on your skill set. You don’t hear about the expensive restaurants complaining about Red Lobster or OutBack Steakhouse, you know why because what they offer is on a different level (or appears to be on a different level). Some people can afford to pay for that fancy french cuisine and others are more than happy with Red Lobster and some will even be satisfied with with a McDonalds filet of fish. If you don’t want to serve those potential customers because you feel your above them, then tell them they can’t afford you. I have a feeling it’s not a fortune 500 executive that’s asking for your services, because if it where you wouldn’t have even written this. Also you may want to keep in mind that most of those fortune 500 start off with inexpensive logos at first. So you never know who you could be blowing off.

As far as some of you people telling other designers what to do and what to accept or take chances on. People have rent, people have families, and you can’t eat ethics. I have two excellent design friends who have been laid off here in Michigan, and you bet your ass ethics went out the door when the design firms they worked at hired some new cheaper designers. If they make a logo for someone for $300 more power to them, logos are an important step to branding but it’s a step.

Would you get a crowd sourced haircut? Then why get a crowd sourced logo?

I agree with you. Nice article. I think it was the american steel company or IBM either way one of those companies was reported to have paid £3,000,000 for their logo which gives an indication of its value.That’s why I designed my logo from a good logo design company logoguru and I am pretty satisfied with the results

To each his own! But I disagree. Jacob, I love your site and your work and understand your point 100%. But there are a few issues there.

1-Not everyone should be designing logos. But who should? How does one know if they are good enough? I think the article is kind of saying ‘if you are not the number one student in your design classroom, then you shouldn’t work!’ Which is saying that 1/10th of the population on earth shouldn’t work.

2-Applying cheaper prices doesn’t kill the industry, as stated above. It makes it more entertaining, more alive. It’s called competition!! I don’t want to live in a monopole of expensive products and services ; as a client – and aren’t we all – I want the choice. I’m sure everyone of you goes to low cost supermarkets. Well, small stores say they kill the industry. Do they really? No. So unless you’ve never bought cheap food, drinks and other products then I think it is slightly hypocrite.

3-About investing time and ressources with no guarantee of payment. Well, of course I agree 100%. But at the same time, if I went to a huge supermarket with empty shelves, and just a tag for prices and a little description for the products, I would not buy anything. Would you? I need to see the product, touch it. If I hire a client hires a professional logo designer, he still has no guarantee that your logo will be better than the competition.

4- Finally, let’s not forget the client!! He is the one who knows what he wants. And not every company is called Coca Cola, Nike or McDonalds. Most companies are small and don’t even know if they’ll still exist in 2 years. Big companies changed their logos once they became bigger.

My point is that I understand and agree with the idea of this article but that we need competition, different prices and qualities. This world is not just for the best of the best of the people. Everyone should have a chance. Some top A list actors are rubbish actors but they had a chance to make it and took the chance.
In Europe you can pay £350 to fly from London to Barcelona, or you can pay £35 with low cost airline Easyjet. Big airlines complained and said that Easyjet was going to kill the industry. They didn’t. Yes they killed some of their competitors. But that’s business.

Jacob, well done for your site. I’ve just discovered it. I promise I’ll write comments when I agree too

what a bad article…even those with a little experience with illustrator and photoshop can make good, professional looking logos with the help of some of the hundreds of web tutorials out there. you sound like you’re full of yourself.

These points are great for large companies or anyone with an idea they want to take online or go international. They need to have something incredibly solid to build upon, which is not just a logo but a brand and identity.

However, how many times have you seen a plumber’s van on the street and thought, ‘What an awful logo.” It’s folks like that who can benefit from a one-time service of getting a logo, or using a design contest to get something better than a piece of clipart. Not everyone is FedEx. I enjoy creating great quality logos for the “little” guys at a price they can afford.

I was fortunate to have an Advertising professor who used real-world examples for assignments — recent jobs needed by real companies. I would advise anyone who has not had this kind of training to look at logo contests as a classroom, where you get paid if you pass the assignment.

I used to hit up DigitalPoint when work was scarce…and then I quit it altogether, and raised my prices. I proved to people I was worth the expense, and my business has been booming ever since.

Ironically…one of the people in that DP screenshot there…proteindude? He eliminated one of my entries from a previous contest of his as soon as he found out I was a girl. He was one of the main motivations why I quit DP and forged for myself.

This really is a terrible, self serving article. When you create a company and a logo, 99% of the people who see your logo will be average everyday people (depending on target audience). The average person sees a logo and thinks, “Hmm, that looks kind of cool.” Designers are the only people who look and say, “What a piece of poorly designed trash. They used Arial when they clearly should have used Tahoma. Amateurs.” I lost major faith in logo design companies when my school spent months consulting to create a new logo and image, probably spent several tens of thousands of dollars, and came up with utter garbage that was immediately rejected by the entire campus community. I wish I had a pic but I can’t even find any.

Great article, I really agree with the points you mentioned.

There seems to be a bug while using chrome to display the article.
The white backdrop to the article doesn’t display correctly and instead the brown background is displayed making it very difficult to read with black on dark brown.

While I certainly don’t approve spec and I find contests to be harmful for the industry, there’s one thing in this article I really couldn’t agree with: “Professional logo designers have a strict logo design process that can take weeks or in some cases months to complete a logo.”

A client reading that will be put off from going to a professional designer.

If you want to avoid clients from going to the logo factories around, then you should design a logo according to their needs, those needs aren’t only about what they need to communicate, but they are also to do with their budget.

My company has this philosphy, maybe it’s completely wrong, but they will say, “If the client decides to invest a lot of money on a logo, feel free to take whatever time you need to make it, if they pay very little for it, then spend your time accordingly.”

You’ll keep clients that wat, spend only the necessary time you need to spend without wasting it, and when you get the client who does want something that values more, then you will be investing your time accordingly.

It’s you who. in the end, decides how much time and energy you spend on a project. Make the client aware that a cheap logo won’t be necessarily the best solution, make them understand that investing more will actually give them a more satisfactory result. And then deliver that more satisfactory result. Then you have ground to stand on.

Yes, logo design is often underrated. But months to design a logo? That’s overrated. Statements like that one hurt the design industry just as much as contests and logo factories. Because you compell your clients to go to them even more.

That’s just my 2 cents.

To others saying how the “elitists” who don’t want contests don’t want amateurs to learn. Many of those people you call “elitists” have spent hours making sites, writing articles, giving advice to people who are learning design on forums and so on. You are out of line.

Logos are often designed by business owners at the beginning of the business, however the idea of branding or marketing across different mediums is where a professional comes in. A proper branding includes not only the various forms of logos on things like letterhead and business cards, but also takes into consideration smaller factors such as how employees answer the phones. Think of your last experience at Starbucks. Everything from the exact color green to the how the drink is called out falls under the umbrella of the services provided by a good graphic design company.

The question I ask to my clients: How much impact do you want to make on potential customers and would you like to be recognized as the leader in your field? If yes, then you need professional services.

Donald Sparkman makes the distinction clear in his book Selling Graphic & Web Design when speaking about websites and using a do it yourself programs. “It will continue to get easier and easier for people to go out, buy something like FrontPage, and create a Web site. But keep this in mind: Microsoft Corporation does not use Microsoft FrontPage to build Microsoft.com.” His point being that it takes expertise and finese to create an effective campaign. Although a final solution can seem like a no-brainer, it often takes a thorough consultative process with experts to yield conclusive results.

While I personally abhor spec work (like logo design contests), ethics issues aside there are actually decent / good submissions to be found there.

I also disagree with “too good to be true” deals. There are crappy logo designers out there that charge an arm and a leg for a logo that doesn’t work. Also not many small to medium size enterprises have the budget for a real branding firm, so they need to make do with a $200 logo which may be cheap, but not necessarily “too good to be true”.

I totally agree…nice article.

Awesome!!

Of course, a professional designer is going to say that.

They want you to avoid all the other ‘cheaper’ alternatives.

This article is a load of hot air. Stock images are a starting place, other websites are another, and as for design competitions; this is a great way to get input from many designers rather than just one.

Totally disagree with this article

Would you get a crowd sourced haircut? Then why get a crowd sourced logo??

Great article, I really agree with the points you mentioned..

I agree and disagree!

This is no different from webdeveloping/designing… There are people who pay $$$ for a good, well structured, well designed and usable website… It works but maybe not. Then there are people who make the website them self or get their uncle to design it… Most of the time It’s not that great BUT many time It does come out really good… And “works” for that person/copmany.

The case you are making Is not about the end result. It’s about your result in this business. It’s all about the money, and maybe this is your only income and thats just fine. For me, I’ve been designing websites for many years for my hobby AND for work… But still i sometimes “give” my friends and family a webdesign, “try” to make a logo (no my thing). I give designes sometimes because I love doing what I do at the same time I work doing It part time… But who are you to say that that doesn’t work? Do you have any statistics on growth, income failing rate etc on campanies that buy “cheap” logos vs “expesive” logos?

I agree that chances are that the company logo is much more likely to work If It’s “designed” professionally” for that company with some thoughts BUT thats not 100%…

The more I think I about your post, the more I dissagree… A good post none the less… I will be comeing here once in a while…

Vraiment juste!
Je suis complêtement d’accord avec tes propos, les entrepriss devraient prendre conscience du probleme ….

nice..,
but sometime, pursuing of deadline = instant way…;)

Thanks and nice artical.

Somtimes its very difficult to design keeping in mind the compatibilty on Prints, mono-cromatic, web, agaist black background or white.

I don’t know much about graphics.This article will help our designers.So let me give this to those people.Let them enjoy.

its kinda hard to make your own logo, outsource is the best way for it, imho ….

Very useful article for newbie like me. I am in process of learning graphics designing, it will help me a lot. Thanks again

Love the design examples of bad logos. Funny stuff.

lol.. i agree

I made a great website for this pharmacy and i always asked them about the logo.. well when they finally gave it to me it was some random image off the internet! thanks a lot… the site looked so bad with the logo, i ended up just making them one.

but really ya great points!

Great article.

I agree with some of the things you’ve written about, but there is ABSOLUTELY NO REASON a logo should take weeks/months. It is just your justification of charging extra hours to your clients. Puh-lease. That applies to web design as well. I was on the client end and honestly, it is completely annoying, to discuss color schemes for a week. I can honestly say, as a designer myself, I dont think you have a nicer logo if the designer took 3 months to chew it over – or a couple of days from start to finish.

and these comments are turning out to be a great resource to find logo contests. For the beginner freelancer with no set clientele, logo contests are great – if you’re good. I wouldn’t do one that the reward was $20, or $50, or $100. But for $500 I’d take a stab at it.

Important article. But in wrong place. Customers are guided by price and time. It is hard to meet their needs especially when we have to compete with “cheap” competition.
Maybe designers should take another role beside the job – to educate their clients.

Anyway, I hope this article is read by bussiness people too.

If they want cheap logo, give the cheap ones. If they want high quality logo, let us sit down and talk it over. It’s as simple as that, what would went wrong?

I used to do site point comps myself when i first started out i feel it let me gain a very in depth experience of clients but as well as being in a high pressure competative no win no fee environment. I do think every one should try a design competition atleast once just to see what it feels like but as for longer term i say no way. Great topic and good article

All very true. Logo design is something to be taken very seriously. Quite frankly, a company that employs any of the aforementioned techniques – doesn’t deserve to be in business!

I guess the logo creation techniques listed above are like comparing a Mercedes and a Stationwagon…

They both will get you to where you want to go but one car will get you where you are going a hell of alot faster and looks much sheeker doing it. Can you tell which one?

Wow, I’ve seen some really bad logos over the past several years. But, some you just can’t get to change to what would work best. People that are say Lawyers have extensive educations.. most anyway and then when they want a website either they have nothing in mind or stuck on a really bad choice.

Leave it to the pro’s to create someone unique to your services.

LOL.. that’s a interesting comment.. “doesn’t deserve to be in business” that is one of the worst business statements I’ve seen in a long time.

We service across the board from the small young entrepreneur to the corporate creative minds. I don’t care if they only have $50 bucks to spend or $3,000 it’s all about customer service and the bottom line… sales. Over 1mil to be exact and thousands of which came from our automated or pre designed templates. Most of the sales come from custom request from repeat buyers of our low end stock

Funny.. your website is using a free software to create it. Thank goodness those services are there for those who want things for free in life or less than $50 bucks.

Still think the same?

pfft!

I think designers are quite underrated in all fields. I’m attending school for interior design and the disrespect and devalue of my services is astounding. I think education is the key here. We need to educate our clients on what we do and why it is more beneficial and worth our fees for them to work with us. Never work for free and never allow “feature creep” it sets the whole design industry back five steps.

Kinda interesting that the discussion has studiously avoided ‘The Pepsi Memo’

http://tinyurl.com/bz2mzd

I hope you al realize that design is nothing without advertising. Like the nike logo … would be just a stripe without the millios of dollars baking it up. Well … you really know that .. right? Stop being a hobby designer… you know who you are

I love this post! Is a good regard for every designer! More interesting! like Kristyan “I hope this article is read by bussiness people too.”

Very interesting article! I’ve been preaching the same thing for some years now and it still surprises me to see how many people fall for the cheapo alternatives. I hope the word gets around…eventually

This post is funny. A designers, or anyones, services are as valuable as the market determines them to be. If a businesses profit margin were directly dependent on the quaillity of the logo design, then the designer who can provide such a design could charge a premium to do so; over the designers whos designs would cause the business to take in less profit.

The problem is, with some exceptions, most logo designers do not provide a design that provides much, if any, value for the business beyond what is provided by design contests represented by 99designs, or to a lesser extent, DP.

It works like this: the busineses who take in less profit due to lesser quality logos would soon be marginalized or run out of business by the more profitable businesses with better logos. Therefore, the designers who can truly provide logos that represent a better value for the business, in the way of more business and profit per dollar invested in the logo, will stay in business, no matter whether they be the more expensive boutique designers or some random jerk on DP. Basic economics.

Business people cant be expected to provide welfare to whining logo designers who do not offer a competitive product. The few good logo designers who truly provide a better value will always have more work than they can handle. Hell, they should win the 99designs contests every time, which pay normal fees generally, if they truly do provide the better value.

All the whining in the world, or price cutting in the world from the other perspective, thankfully doesnt make a damn of difference due to the wonderful forces of market economics. But it would take running a business to gain this perspective I guess.

BTW, after many failed experiences with both premium and budget designers, I wound up having to learn a graphics program and design my own truly above average logo. Illustrator skills do not a good designer make…

# Where’s the theory. I thought this was going to be an article on what makes up a
# good logo. ie: circles are evil, etc, etc…

So did I, to me this seems more like bashing competition.

Thank you so much for your thoughts. People who underinvest in their brand identity send an important message: I’M CHEAP! We see it all the time. Fledgeling companies come in to meet and immediately start talking price, we send them on their way. Its not about price is about your IDEA! If you underfund, you reap what you sow.

Very nice this post, this information is very usefull, thanks

IMO what you should do, is learn photoshop and make your own. That way you are satisfied with your logo.

Well, times are changing. What was expensive is becoming cheaper and cheaper. Do you really think the logo design industry is the only field where this can be experienced? Well due to the fact that web design and development is already outsourced mainly to India and Pakistan design firms nowadays can develop websites for less than $250 with design+CMS back-end. Does this mean that I should lower my prices to $250? No. I am confident in my abilities and am certain I will still attract customers who want quality.

Of course the problem is there are many overpriced logo designers or web designers who complain because the garbage they can do can be done by an Indian provider for $2/hour. Well no matter what economic turmoil will devastate our market, people will always be willing to pay more for quality logos and web design.
If you are good, talented and have the creativity, you will always make money.

I still think logo design will always be an art. You cannot learn logo design in expensive schools you need to be born a logo designer. Same goes to web design: creating stunning, unique designs from scratch cannot be learned from a tutorial. Sure you can understand the methodology and techniques, but if you suck, you will suck after 1000 hours of tutorials and/or higher education.

Its all about the experience. I used to be really suck but after gaining access to heaps of awesome photoshop resources, the main ones : psdtuts, webdesignerdepot, and spoongraphics, my designs have become really awesome.

I don’t agree with the idea that you can only get a good logo if you pay professional a lot of money.

I also don’t agree with the idea that you can’t design your own great logo.

I am not a professional but I designed a killer logo, only the artwork wasn’t very good. It consisted of a bad photo of one of my monitors, a screenshot of my browser, and a bit of bad hand drawing with a mouse. But it was memorable, had personality, and it was a fantastic concept.

In the hands of a friend of mine who is a talented web comic artist that volunteered to do the work for free, redrawing the whole thing in his own wonderful style, the logo came to life.

The design was mine, the artwork was his, together it was perfect and it cost me nothing. Now I have something beyond just a mere logo, I have a mascot with his own “fan club”.

Simple and clever are the keys for a good logo design

Craig Miller

professional logos

The industry certainly has changed,graphic design and logo design has become a commodity, I believe overall design will continue to suffer as the web has opened the world to less educated clients and less talented designers. Hopefully in the long run clients will come to value and pay a premium for more skilled designers.

As a high school art teacher I get several art contest directives from various local,state,national corporations and organizations. Recently, I received a county regional logo contest directive from our regional education office to inform my art students about our public transit logo design search. Ironically, after the student design is selected ($100 prize) the winning logo design will be submitted the transit’s graphic designer. Now, my comment is this…either this county owned business has money to give away, or the contracted graphic designer has an issue with coming up with ideas.
Anyway, it just caught me off guard when I read the directive.

Sounds like somebody doesn’t want to be put out of a job, to me…

As usual, a good article, but we designers allready know all these facts, it’s the customer who needs to know about it. Who gonna tell?

Not a fan of this article at all, plenty of people will do just fine designing their own logo with the ubiquitous online resources.

Truly said, that it varies from company to company, but in general, I think feedback is very much important, and not necessarily it should be from higher authorities, instead it can be from anyone in the company, i.e. at times a junior resource can give a great feedback too…..

What the author comes back to in most of his points, is that logo’s need a good deal of thought and understanding. I have yet to see a business owner, who’s signing the cheque at the end of the day, not do that.

You do not need to be a “professional logo designer” to put a lot of thought into something that’s going to represent your business because *you* already do that.

Who better to design a logo than you as a business owner. If you can afford to get somebody else to convert your ideas into a a visual artifact, great. If not, do not be scared by a poorly written, quite self promoting article into spending money that could have been better spent elsewhere (like building a good product or improving your customer support services).

Quality is subjective. The author clearly believes that things like design contests and DIY sites and tutorials result in poorer quality. I’d like to remind the author that the judge of quality is the person commissioning the work and his or her business consumers.

If the commissioner of the work likes it, the design has met its goal. The process to achieve it is then irrelevant. One may counter argue, that the market or clientele of the business using the logo, would be the target to satisfy.

My thoughts to that argument are; no designer however great they believe they are, are in a better place to understand the business requirements than the owner of the business. If the business owners are satisfied, it probably because they believe that the logo represents their business in the way they desired. Its their prerogative given that they run the business. Not the designer.

Good article, thanks for sharing and keep it up!

But in few point or condition i am not agree with you. Quality logo design which attract the consumer and retain in the mind of customer is depend upon the designer experience and proper search work. Only expert and professional graphics designer can do this job successfully. I think owner of business should brief the about the scope to business and company in details to designer and should prepared more than 5 logos. Select which one is the best. Not depend on only single design and don’t try to save the cost. Because business logo is most important.

heyy i <3 .. can i print this and share it? i will obviously include a link to your site, and give you credit (and not take all the glory myself)

I think what Walter said above is correct: “I think for designers this is a bad thing as a lot of talent and time gets wasted submitting and competing with hundreds of other designs.”

Not only that, but it’s frustrating for a top level designer like myself (I admit, I did the contests) to waste our talent and skill only for a client with the CRAPPIEST taste to pick some piece of crap that looks like a second grader designed in Paint. This one in particular was a huge burn:

http://99designs.com/contests/4891

The ass who was holding it gave me “great” feedback and led me to believe that I was going to be the winner, only for him to turn around and pick utter crap (you can see the winner there, too). There have been a multitude of contests I’ve entered where this has been the case. It wore on to the point where I had a breakdown after an accident (which left me unable to design for a long time) and just quit the contests, which were draining my creativity and wasting my time. And not only that, but there is one particular “designer” (Carlson) in these contests who likes to rip off other designers’ concepts/composition. You put up your design and within a couple of hours, he’ll rip it off (because he is incapable of coming up with an original composition and his font work sucks MAJOR balls). Wonderful. And when he was called on it, he whined that he wasn’t ripping anyone off, that all his crap is original, blah blah blah. Yeah. O.k.

As for training, some of the best logo designers I know haven’t had any formal training/don’t have a degree, and on the flip side, some of the crappiest logo designers get jobs all the time. The guy who designed the horrific Republican National Convention ‘08 logo? That idiot went to RISD. It’s a double-edged sword (for me, the contests were necessarily at the time).

Now I get people messaging me from the same contest sites asking me to participate because they like my portfolio of winners. Well…dunno what to say to them, because I am very wary of wasting my time doing anything good for those people.

I wanted to comment on the actual post, but I got caught up in some of theses replies. Why are people so mad at designers? Do you honestly feel as though we should be paid little if anything? I’m left wondering. When none of your customers can see how good you are at what you do, your logo reflects that quality. That isn’t worth something? It’s your identity isn’t it?
Truth be told, a lot of these BUSINESSES are built on weak philosophies and even thinner names. They just want to make money (off of everyone) and haven’t given much thought to appearing otherwise. Put some THOUGHT behind your business identity and maybe just maybe you’ll understand why you NEED that logo.

If you can’t do your own logo, the way you want, why shouldn’t you have to pay for a solution. IMO, specific is custom. Revisions are specific. You want a logo designed based on specifics and revisions, you should be paying.

Play fair.

Nice article. Sporadic thoughts …

Spec work is always bad. Spec work for a logo is entirely one of the most ludicrous things any self-respecting designer could spend time on.

Anyone thinking that design and good ideas are negotiable to the point of free contests or low-balled rates has no self-esteem. If a company puts their heart and soul into their business because they truly want to succeed, the business identity and logo deserve the same time and attention. It will inevitably be a representation of that business (possibly for the life of the business).

Understandably, budgets weigh heavily with any business owner. That said, you get out of it what you put in. Garbage in, Garbage out.

What is a business worth? What will it be worth? Logo and identity work should take this into consideration IMHO. It isn’t all about how pretty it is and how cheaply you can acquire it.

Design is not fast-food.

Paul Rand who is arguably one of the best logo designers (IBM, UPS, and ABC) has some good thoughts on their purpose:

“A logo derives its meaning from the quality of the thing it symbolizes, not the other way around.”

“A logo is less important than the product it signifies; what it means is more important than what it looks like.”

It’s a great perspective to me because if your business and what it offers is not great then what good is a fantastic logo design? I think Google is the perfect example where the logo is no where near a “great design” but is one of the most powerful brands in the world.

Cheers Cisco! Paul Rand is a great reference for this topic.

People who don’t believe in quality work and that it should not be paid for deserve what they get, their $20 logo, and their little shop in a back alley that no one cares about. Any one with some taste(the thing that every single person who goes for a $20 logo lacks) will see your logo/identity, and think “that’s just bad”, “ughh” and will be put off.

That is the thin line between getting people to respect your company or not, the quality you present. Most people don’t need to see it, but that’s why you get professional designers who know what they’re doing to do that for you. Designers don’t have to be great speakers, writers, just good at communicating visually. They don’t need mile long CVs, because at the end of the day everyone says, “eye for design” “eye for detail” spare the crap you copy paste over and over, just show your work and let the work speak for it self, that’s how you judge good designers.

To the people who don’t understand, let me put it in simple words: I can walk in to a designer fashion store and get shoes that cost $300 or get the same ones for 20$ because I can buy cheap knock offs, then put those 2 pairs side by side. People will notice, and the ones that do will laugh in your face and walk away.

Enjoy your $20 fail.

Thank you for the good article. I will agree that most of the time going through a professional design agency will provide great results. However, most business start-ups have a hard time justifying thousands of dollars (especially now) to brand their company. Yes, your logo is KEY to branding your company…but many online sites offer a much more affordable solution to your average start-up.

I made some logos for my blog website.
And I wish to allow anyone to use them.
What do I did this wrong?
Because I did not ask permission of the manager on the website.

I do not put my name on all of these logos.
Because I use the existing facilities such as Times New Roman font, and else,
but all my own original creations.

Thank you for the response.
Best regards, dinda’kk

It is fantastic writing as well as showing the picture to describe the article more and more on how a logo should not be designed

Brilliant post! I hope companies looging for a new logo will find this article before starting the process.
A good, solid, memorable logo needs time, care and attention to come to fruition

well, I feel like I need to cast my vote on this heated debate over the use of online logo contests.

By no means would I ever want to spread the idea that “anyone is a designer” which is an unfortunate view in society today. Nor do I have any desire to support the addition to the ocean of terrible design which all ready over pollutes the world.

Also, I do agree that these logo sites will generally not produce top-quality designs and they lose the full client-designer interaction that is important in quality logo design.

I DO think that they are a good way for people with a small budget to at least get some type of good design instead of creating their own logo by combining a clip-art illustration with their name written in papyrus.

I disagree that its “unfair” to the design world. This is the world we live in – go with the flow or sink.

I think that it can be an experimental creative outlet with a possibility of earning money while you’re having fun. A good opportunity for people trying to learn design or who want to practice design but not as a career as the competition does promote learning in the design field to an extent.

I started a logo site with a friend. We have a current contest going on, but the reason why we started to site was to work on something positive and hopefully connect designers and get an appreciation from the general public as well.

So, I agree with many of the negative and positive points regarding contests.
(www.godslogo.com) But I do think when done appropriately, a design contest can and does help our community.

I think part of our frustration as designers, is that the general public doesn’t understand the work involved in what we do. Art and talent seems easy when done well.

What I am touched by is that almost everyone can a appreciate the beauty of a really well designed logo. After seven years, the positive reaction to good design still motivates me to do more.

God Bless!

Awesome, Jacob. You have saved me a lot of writing Got this linked from FAQ now.

Thank you WDD for the post.

- Raja Sandhu Logo Designer

Totally worth reading!! and completely helpful!!! =]

Great post!

There is a distinct difference in the quality of work of someone who got a graphic design certificate through a two week two week program, and someone who invested years studding the art of visual communication.

Someone who invested so much time and money into really mastering the art of graphic design will most likely not seek business through a design competition.

Yes the client does choose, and yes that is very important, but that does not in any way assure the quality of your work. The client might ask you for a rainbow with stars and a lighthouse in the background. It is your job to educate your client on what is good design. You are the master of your craft, and that’s what they’re paying you for.

Lets not forget — design is known for good looks, but its the conceptual creative ideas that make GOOD design.

As for DIY — check out this link by Ellen Lupton (One of the most esteemed, acclaimed Graphic Designers of our time). This was very ccontroversial amongst other designers. You can probably find many dialogs on this on the AIGA site…

http://books.google.com/books?id=rWuict_SE-8C&dq=Ellen+Lupton&printsec=frontcover&source=an&hl=en&ei=-PR-SrHQHpeqtgfClZDcAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=8#v=onepage&q=&f=false

In further support of my anti design contest stance, I’ve just posted my view on Spec Work:

The “Pros” and Cons of Spec Work

Some very interesting points of view indeed. Years ago I used to tease one of the designers I worked beside ( I was more of a developer back then) who was classically trained that they would go through the entire process of logo creation taking days and days of work to arrive back at a logo that they could have created in 1 hour. I queried why someone whould have to pay for the process. I conceeded that the process was necessary to ensure a professional job was done, but couldn’t help but wonder if 7 out of 10 times the same logo could have been created by an experienced logo designer in a couple of hours, begging the question, how can you justify such a big price-tag.

Now, many years on in my career, I have to admit I can totally appreciate both sides of this arguement, and it all, as usual, really boils down to, you get what you pay for, one way or another and if you are going to do it yourself, only shear fluke will result in a professional logo for your company. Its your business, so its your risk to take..

Thank you for sharing this post, I think most of the People don’t understand how important of quality logo design.

A logo is very important for a firm. It must be unique and professional. If you know a little photoshop you can make it yourself.Its not hard.

I am agree with you. you are totally right.

haha great post, logos should be drawn in powerpoint, using word art….sarcasm

Woo Its a really good post … Specially the elaboration is really well sketched

Company logo is too important. It should be creative and custom design which express the your product, brand or services and business. I think only professional and experience graphics designer can do the good job regarding the logo design.

Thanks for sharing some interesting points in this post.

Best regards

Finally something different!! There must be thousand of blogs stating how to design a logo and hardly any of them speak of the common mistakes. I really appreciate your attempt. Thanks for the article.

Ha, you sound like a jaded logo designer who is pissed that “the times they have a changed.” You whittled out every option except for “go to a professional design house and pay thousands of dollars, cuz you know that if you pay thousands of dollars, it’ll be top notch.”

Haaaa!!! 99designs.com is all anyone needs. $100 bucks and you’re done. If the quality of submitters is crap, guess what? THEY LOSE THE CONTEST.

I got news for you, though…they’re FAR from all low quality.

You gotta understand–the world is a big place filled with millions of people with every hobby you can imagine. Some of those people’s hobbies are creating things. Like logos. It’s not my thing, but a lot of people get off on it, are good at it, and head to sites like 99designs for the fun of it.

It’s like tech heads. Got a computer problem you just can’t solve? Type any question into google, like “my copy and paste function doesn’t work in microsoft word” and bingo bongo, there are pages of results of people who have taken the time (for some reason) to post the solution on countless forums dedicated to computer tech issues. Why do they do it? Because, as strange and alien as it seems, they like to do it.

Just like something as simple as logo design (hell, it even extends to web design, too–type in “how to create rounded corners using dreamweaver for a list of over a dozen step by step tutorials, for example).

I have over 40 different sites, and all of my graphics (logos, headers, etc) have been outsourced to people found on sites like 99designs, elance and guru.com. And, all my graphics work has been done for less than what one legit “professional” design firm would have charged for probably one “big company” logo design.

Oh, and hey, don’t try to tell Phillip Knight that he needs to spend thousands upon thousands of dollars for a logo…

//The SWOOSH logo is a graphic design created by Caroline Davidson in 1971. It represents the wing of the Greek Goddess NIKE. Caroline Davidson was a student at Portland State University in advertising. She met Phil Knight while he was teaching accounting classes and she started doing some freelance work for his company. Phil Knight asked Caroline to design a logo that could be placed on the side of a shoe. She handed him the SWOOSH, he handed her $35.00. In spring of 1972, the first shoe with the NIKE SWOOSH was introduced…..the rest is history!//

I’m not sure I agree with everything in the article. I do think it is essential to carefully research which company to use for your logo design. I wouldn’t say to avoid all cheap logo design companies though – that’s a bit broad!
Also the old saying goes ‘you always get what you pay for’ – sometimes small start-ups or micro-businesses can’t afford to go with a bigger agency, and just don’t understand the process of design.
I agree with your thoughts on logo design contests though, as designers we shouldn’t debase ourselves in this way

thank you. a few minutes ago someone showed me a website with these contests for 50 bucks….insane price dumping. i dont know why people apply to such contests. And only the winner gets cash. So 40 other guys spent hours to design something….
the result is that people who work in this business get less paid and beeing told that it must be cheap, look there they make it cheap. and how do you live with nearly no money? …the rich get richer.

design contest sites are predominantly populated with contests which receive submissions that are glaring obvious derivatives of other designer’s work, if not direct rip offs. many submissions are also examples of composites of any number of random, glitzy, shiny 3d icons or other similar stock symbolism. much of the design work features shadowing and similar treatments that reflect current trends of overstated stylization. why is this bad? its not if you want something intended to distinguish your brand from the crowded marketplace.

indeed, some of the work reflects true talent and skill.

one of the largest problems is the huge lack of meaningful interaction with the client. to me, in my experience, this element is more important than any other aspect of logo design. deriving an understanding of the business goals, challenges, competitive landscape, spirit, essence etc are mission critical to successful logo design. what trumps this however, is what the client expectations are. more often than not, clients state things like: integrity, high-tech, cool, hip, funky and on and on as input for consideration. the truth is these adjectives mean nothing. they are overused, overestimated and just plain moot in terms of developing an on-target logo.

doing work without a guarantee of payment is considered by the professional spirit of the industry as unethical. sure, some might disagree. how many plumbers will come fix your toilet or sink based on the speculation you will like their work and get paid? how many attorneys will take your case on speculation (not including contingency – entirely different scenario)?

graphic design is a profession. is it the same as the medical profession? no, the unique factor that a life is at stake makes the medical field unique above all occupations. is the graphic design profession on par with the legal profession in terms of legitimacy? i’d argue it is. at least in terms of practicing law, rather than being a judge etc. then again, with my disdain for lawyers, i hesitate to even consider the notion.

for those who haven’t been a client and worked with a design firm or ad agency on a design project, you’d be quite surprised as to what goes in to the process. and of course the professional conduct, strategy, presentation and delivery of the final product is quite an impressive and fulfilling experience.

for those of you who’ve worked at a design firm or ad agency and worked with a client on a design project, you know how much work goes into the process. you know how important the design brief is, how important account management is, how important communication is, how important establishing mutually agreed upon expectations are.

it seems to me that a well designed logo cannot result from a process that goes without any of these important elements. sure, you might get something you think looks cool. but, will it be successful for your product or service? or does it work for just you? will it die on the vine when 3D stylization is no longer trendy? will it stand up to years and years of marketing communications, industry changes and competitive environments?

can a logo make or break a business? yes and no. many businesses are successful despite horrible logos. few businesses are successful whose product or service sucks, but has a great logo. the reality lives somewhere in-between. a logo that supports a well thought out business model, marketing and communications strategy, and breathes life into the essence and spirit of the brand.

logos are often updated for this exact purpose: to add fresh air to a logo in an increasingly competitive market segment, to reposition the brand, or to update a potentially fading style.

do you think someone who charges $20, $45, $100, $500 to design a logo even thinks about this stuff? and if so, do they know how to incorporate the insight into a finished logo?

i’ve been doing logos for 16+ years. i consider myself a specialist. i’ve been paid as much as $5000 for full strategic brand positioning and corporate ID system, and as little as $250 for a “quickie.” of course the $5k project received MUCH more attention and due diligence that the quickie, but my years of experience allowed me to create a $250 logo that was on-target, professional and at the very least a great value for the client.

many of the design contest clients, more often than not, think they know what they want, have no idea how to express it, rarely recognize it when they see it and have no idea how to recognize the objective implications of a well designed logo. so, they often respond to anything that transcends the distance between scribble on paper, or what they’ve done in MSWord and something bright and shiny on the computer screen.

the work i generally see at design contest i liken to the sneaker and toothbrush design scenario. always gimmicky and over designed, no subtlety or finesse and entirely serving today’s short-lived trendy aesthetics. ugly, ugly ugly

logo designs are first and foremost an exercise in objectivity. and secondly, the subjectivity of the finished logo is a matter of craftsmanship and execution. without the objectivity being addressed, you end up with mediocrity.

stepping off the soap box now.

Well, let’s face the ugly Truth… this was my 1st Idea and the Draft took just 30 Minutes to make:

http://c2.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/110/l_88af8f8d73344826a1b79713c169c5d1.jpg

Quick, what do you see here at the first Sight? And waddaya think this could stand for?

im starting to really love this site

Just came across your blog but got some useful information, keep posting.

exactly Paul

im agree with your points.

Good article. My favorite part is the the quote from David comparing the cost of logo design to the cost of houses. Brilliant!

What the author comes back to in most of his points, is that logo’s need a good deal of thought and understanding. I have yet to see a business owner, who’s signing the cheque at the end of the day, not do that.

Great advice. When it’s too good to be true, be wary!

Thanks for sharing

hands and feet up for this one!

I can’t fully agree with this article as I know first hand that there are plenty of great talented designers bidding for contests and although you might think they didn’t put much thought into a logo, their designs are brilliant which companies can adopt fairly easily. Have a look at 99designs.com….

iStockPhoto and other major online graphic sites are starting to take more freelance logo design customers. How will your ordinary logo designer stay in business? Maybe they will have to go work for Logoworks ahhhhhhhh!

Hi, this is my question, Do you is appropriate if I try to create a logo, because I’m not a pro but I know how to use this kind of program, maybe not really well. I hope somebody can help me and thanks . I apologize for my poor english but I’m not an american guy.

Sorry the question is “Do you THINK is appropriate if I try to create a logo?”

very nice concept…

I definitely disagree with your “Do it Yourself” point. I would certainly go for a professional.

That everything true we same just like in article explain process of logo design to our clients.

very true really underrated these days..

Nice article. A good logo is essential and worth paying for. I think some of my clients should read this!

I would never claim to be able to design logos, but I usually design my own for my web sites. After all, I’m probably the one person who knows when I’m trying to communicate.

(It would be great to have a professional do it, however.

i designed my own logo. not as good as what a pro does but i think it’s enough for me.

CLAP CLAP, or should I say TAP TAP! U put it right where it lands and hurts the most! Those I want excellent adidas nike logo, but I’m kinda short on cash! LOL!